对话 | 策展人采访展览“主人”
Dialogue | Curator’s Interview with exhibition “hosts”
本次“所见非所得：一个关于杨锋基金会的展览”中，三位艺术家何采柔（Joyce Ho）、李杰（Lee Kit）、李燎受策展人之邀，成为“主人”，与策展人一同发展出一个全新的展览。以杨锋基金会所收藏的三人的作品为起点，三位艺术家将各自创作一组全新的作品，从各自不同的视角展示展览本身与收藏之间的新的关联性。策展人对三位“主人”进行了采访，以下为采访内容。
The “Everything You Need To Know About The FY Foundation: An Exhibition” focuses on its collection and the notion of collecting, questioning whether present notions of the importance of collecting could be understood in different terms by also considering a more expanded notion of institutions beyond the white cube space of the museum.
Three artists, Joyce Ho, Lee Kit and Li Liao, had been invited to the “host” to work together closely with the curator to develop the exhibition. Their immediate point of departure is their own work from the FY Foundation Collection, from which they will develop a new body of work in order to propose a new set of relationships between the exhibitions itself and the collection. The curator Biljana Ciric interviewed the three “hosts” and the following content comes the transcript of the interview.
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采访者Interviewer：比利安娜.思瑞克 / Biljana Ciric
受访者Interviewee：何采柔 / Joyce Ho
比利安娜：谈谈新作品“某日于杨锋基金会” 吧。作品这次扮演了基金会介绍的角色。另外,你为什么会想到把前台区域作为作品的背景呢?
何采柔：其实想到做这件作品主要是因为我对这个基金会缺乏了解。我希望去了解这个地方，想把基金会的入口处用作行为的背景,而行为的内容就取材于基金会的基本流程。我希望从标准化的语境中去挖掘些什么，通过改变我们的听觉和视觉场域,创造出不一样的化学反应，从而去了解那些最平常的东西，并赋予其仪式感。
BC: Please tell me about your new work A Day at FY Foundation , which serves as an introduction to the FY Foundation. Also, can you speak to your interest in engaging with the reception area as the context for this work?
JH: The starting point for this work was actually my lack of familiarity with the foundation. As I ventured to understand this place, I wanted to use the entryway of the foundation as the context for a performance, with the content of the performance being the most basic processes of the foundation itself. For this, I am attempting to make something out of this most standardized context, but to create a different chemistry by changing how we listen, the visual atmosphere, in an e ort to understand the most ordinary of things and to make this situation into some kind of ritual in the work.
比利安娜:你的创作常跟书本密切相关。这次怎么想到打造杨锋基金会图书馆?如何作为一件永久性的作品,又具有强烈的行为性?
何采柔:我觉得,我们跟纸质书本的关系和以前不一样了。不论是作为一种媒 介、还是作为一个物品、一种姿态,书本都在渐渐离我们远去。面对书的式微, 我希望通过把书包起来并进行改造(如更改书名),创造出另一层关系。这就是《UN-Covered》 的起源。
BC: You often work with the book form within your practice. How did this interest develop to become the FY foundation library that you created, which I understand to be both a permanent piece and very performative in nature? JH: I think our relationship with printed books is changing these days. We are losing our relationship with not only this type of media, but also the book as an object, a gesture. I hope by covering the books and transforming them (i.e. changing their titles) in response to their disappearance will create another kind of relationship. This has become the work UN-Covered .
比利安娜:我们刚开始谈展览“主人”的概念时,你就想到《On/No》 这件作品,它反映了你对展览和本次展览空间的核心思考。能不能详细谈谈这件作品和你的思考?
何采柔:在这件作品中,我把两个很相似的标识相对地放在一起,但它们所释放的信息和含义几乎是相反的。现实生活中,当我们看到一个信号灯,我们知道它要传递规则或命令,而我们会在遵守和反抗之间游走。这件作品所表达的就 是“on”和“no”它们是互为镜像的图像,但并不是相反的。(或者说,意思相反, 但行动相似。)
BC: From the beginning of our conversations around the host of this exhibition, the work On/No was at the forefront of your mind and reflects your core thinking about the exhibition and the space that we are engaging. Can you elaborate further on this work and your thinking?
JH: For this work I place two very similar signs in mirrored positions, despite the fact that their messages and meanings are nearly opposite. When we see a signal light in real life, we understand it to give us an instruction or order, but we tend to fluctuate between conforming to its command and fighting against it. This work considers how “on” and “no” are mirrored images of each other, rather than opposites.(Or perhaps opposite in meaning but similar in action.)
比利安娜:谈谈与杂志相结合的《Progress》这件作品跟展览的关系吧?
何采柔:我觉得深圳是个很有趣的地方。来之前我就知道这是个很有进取心的 地方。可以说,这里已经成为一个体系的象征高速地向前发展。接到这次展览邀请时,因为我手头恰好有一本关于石油钻井的宣传杂志,当时这个行业正蓬勃发展,所以我做了一个视频。画面既像排气管,也像烟尘团。然后我把视频投影到杂志上,同时还在杂志上画几笔。人类无从知晓这所有的进步与发展会引领我们走向何处,因此,我试着营造一个谜样的时刻激发我们的想象。
BC: Would you please explain the work with magazines titled Progress in relationship to the exhibition?
JH: I find Shenzhen to be a very interesting place. Even before I visited, I was aware that it’s a highly progressive city. It seems to be a symbol of a system that’s progressing at a very high speed. When I was invited to participate in this exhibition, I happened to have an old promotional magazine from an oil drilling system, at a stage when that industry was celebrated. So I tried to make a video of something that seems like exhaust or clouds and project it on the magazine, with some areas also painted upon. We, as human beings, still don’t know where all this progress will lead us, and in light of this I tried to insert a moment of mystery that prompts our imagination.
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采访者Interviewer：比利安娜.思瑞克 / Biljana Ciric
受访者Interviewee：李燎 / Li Liao
比利安娜:能否说说一直以来对于介入企业架构的兴趣?
李燎:就我观察,企业架构里的权力关系是目前更为圆滑也更为实际的一种权力关系。它既符合现在实干兴邦的倡导,同时也与我对权力传统意义上的想象相违背一种没有行政级别或伦理辈分的权力主体。
BC: Would you please explain your reoccurring interest in intervening in corporate structures?
LL: From my own observations, the power relations within corporate structures at this moment in time are more flexible and practical than before. This finding is productive, yet goes against my previous assumptions. The power relations in corporate structures are no longer subject to the hierarchical system based on administrative rank or seniority.
比利安娜:针对本次展览,你提出在展期内“多”雇一个人,他/ 她会工作时间内出现在那里却没有任何工作。能否说说这背后的思考?
李燎:正如上面提的实干兴邦,有一句俗话是“公司不养闲人”。 这样做是在公司养了一个闲人,这和我的定位挺相似。对于社会 来说我也是个闲人,如不是因为一场艺术活动,公司也不会养一个闲人吧。它同时也揭示了这个空间捉摸不定的属性。
BC: Within the exhibition you propose to hire an “extra” person for the duration of the show – the only one who will be there during working hours without a proper job. Please discuss your thinking behind this project.
LL: As I’ve said before, productivity plays a key role. Companies do not pay idle employees. An “extra” person is an idle person, which is quite similar to the place I occupy in the society. If not for an artistic event, the company would not have agreed to pay an idle employee, I believe. In this way, the somewhat uncertain nature of this space is also revealed.
比利安娜:招聘额外人员由公司人力资源部完成。员工的标准是什么?
李燎:员工的标准由我与人事部门协商,当然以我的要求为核, 以人事部门条件为表。我的要求很简单,勤勉安静、融入环境。
BC: The recruitment of this extra person was done through the company’s HR department. But what were the qualifications required for the employee?
LL: The qualifications for the employee were the result of the negotiations between the HR department and myself. One could view them as my stated demands filtered through the formalities of the HR department. What I required was quite simple: a diligent, quiet, and easygoing person in the environment.
比利安娜:展览中没有明确指出谁才是那个制造了看和被看之间张力的人。能否 就这一点进行阐述?
李燎:或许我们能欣喜的发现,一个偶尔慵懒发呆的真实员工被误认为是那个 多余的人。
BC: Within the exhibition there is no clear indication of who this person is, which creates a tension between the acts of watching and being watched. Would you please elaborate on this aspect of the work?
LL: Probably to our surprise we find that a “true” employee, who idles around occasionally, will be suspected to be that extra person.
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采访者Interviewer：比利安娜.思瑞克 / Biljana Ciric
受访者Interviewee：李杰 / Lee Kit
比利安娜:这次参展作品背后的出发点是什么?
李杰:起初我不知道该如何着手,在某种意义上,这不是个展览,但又是个展览。很微妙。所以,我觉得自己其实没什么选择,应该从基金会收藏的我的那幅 《白痴们》开始。
要厘清所谓我的出发点,应该回溯到我的一些最原初的概念。其实,我的基本思考力并没有很直接的关注点(笑),但我对一些特定的的事件和话题非常感兴趣,而这些跟此次展览,也跟深圳这座城市相关。例如,二级城市的概念,这一直是我感兴趣的话题。深圳是一座二级城市,人们在这里生活、工作,但这里跟 伦敦、纽约、北京、上海、香港都不一样。 如果我把我所有关于二级城市的想象和思考全部投射到这场展览中,把这些话题一网打尽,那就显得太多了。所以就有了我的第二个出发点:回顾《白痴们》[5] 这件藏品。这件作品是我去年在上海创作的,是对全球政治环境、尤其是美国的环境的一种回应。
BC: What was the point of departure for your work in this exhibition?
LK: At first I didn’t know where to start for this exhibition, which, in a way, is not an exhibition but then is still an exhibition. It’s a bit tricky. So, I felt I didn’t really have a choice; I needed to start with the collection work—the painting Idiot—as a starting point.
In order to discover what constituted my points of departure we should go back to some of my preliminary concepts. Actually, my basic concept had no direct points of concern [laughs], but I do have an interest in specific issues and with specific content, which relate to this exhibition and the city of Shenzhen. For example, the idea of secondary cities; this is something I have always been interested in. Shenzhen is a secondary city, where you can live and work, but it isn’t London, New York, Beijing, Shanghai, or Hong Kong.
If I project all of my imaginations and thoughts about secondary cities in this exhibition, it would be too much. But anyway that would be my second point of departure: to revisit the collection work Idiot. I made that work last year in Shanghai in response to the global political situation, specifically it was related to the situation in America.
比利安娜:作品是在特朗普参加竞选期间完成的?
李杰:对。而且展出那天恰逢特朗普当选。因此,《白痴们》 和二级城市的生 活似乎出现了某种内在的联系。
另一个出发点与这幅画的展示模式有关。要用以前的方式再展一遍吗?当然不。 或许可以利用影像文献的方式。所以我开始做了一些影像记录,然后再进行编 辑。接着,就出现了第三个想法,要与办公室的空间环境有所呼应。我很希望利 用办公区域,把办公室作为展出的语境。但如果真的要使用办公室,显得作品承 载的东西又太多了。于是我决定把办公室氛围先放一放,只单纯把办公室作为一 个背景。办公室里有什么呢?A4纸。
BC: You mean it was a work made during the time of Trump’s campaign and election.
LK: Yes. And the presentation of that piece took place on the day Trump was elected. So, Idiot and life in secondary cities; there seems to be some sort of connection there.
The other starting point had to do with the physical presentation of presenting this painting. Should I show it as I did before? Of course not. Then perhaps I can make use of the video documentation of the work. Yes. I started with the video documentation, and then re-edited it again. Then, the third idea came along, in response to the space being an office area. I really wanted to make use of the office area, the office as a context. But if I were to really make use of the office, I would begin to take too much on with my work, so I decided to forget about the office atmosphere and make use of it simply as a context. And what is in the office? A4 paper.
比利安娜:《会议室》是这次在现场创作的新作品,当时你正在制作和安装其他作品,对不对?图像是几天前刚刚在布展期间完成的?
李杰:没错。有一次我站在会议室外等人,而这个人坐在会议室里面,等待接受 采访。所以,他在等一次采访,而我在等他。我要进去在玻璃墙上画画。后来我 想到我应该给他拍张照。接着,我又想到,“等”这个动作是办公室里一项很重 要的活动。我们总是在等:不仅要等采访者,每个人都在等 等同事、等老板、 等某人的确认,等等。其实我很在行,我老是让别人等我!(笑)
渐渐地,我发现这里面的关联,所以开始创作这件作品。有几个关键词把这些东 西串联起来:在办公室里等待、办公用品、玻璃板、A4纸和《白痴们》。
BC: This other work you made, Conference Room, is the new work you created onsite while you were installing and producing the other work, is that right? And the image was taken just a few days ago, during the installation?
LK: Yes, well actually I was standing outside the conference room, waiting for someone. This someone was sitting inside the room; he was waiting to be interviewed. So, he was waiting for an opportunity to be interviewed, and I was waiting for him. I needed to go inside to paint the glass wall, and then I thought I might as well take a picture of him. But then, waiting is also an important activity in an office environment. We are always waiting. Not only the people who come to be interviewed, but also everybody’s waiting— waiting for your colleagues, waiting for your boss, waiting for some confirmation from somebody... which I am a professional at. I let people wait for me all the time! [Laughs]
I noticed the association there, and so I started to make that particular work. But basically there are certain keywords that link these things together: waiting in an office, material in the office, the glass panel, A4 paper, and an Idiot...
比利安娜:我还有一个问题,是关于那件你还在创作中,我没有见过的作品的。能谈谈那件作品吗?
李杰:那是一件静物绘画。我在基金会展厅外面、吸烟区外面、卫生间外面拍了些照片。这里到处都有藤蔓植物,特别是在一些角角落落的地方。我的绘画就是关于这些植物。
我对角落很感兴趣,而人们总是在角落里放上植物。这么做的话,角落凹面会出现两种色度一个较亮,一个较暗。这与柱子凸面相对比,(柱子)不是负空间,而角落是负空间。
BC: I have another question about the work I haven’t seen yet, which you have yet to produce. Can you talk about this piece?
LK: It’s going to be a still life painting. I took some photos outside the foundation’s exhibition space, outside in the smoking area, and outside the bathroom. They have some kind of stringy plant hung everywhere, especially in the corners of spaces. I’m going to make a painting of one of these plants.
I’m interested in corners, and they always put plants in the corners. When they put plants in the corners, there are two shaded panels—one slightly brighter and one in the shade. And then it relates to the pillars, which is not a negative space; the corners are negative space.